Thursday, February 2, 2012

In Defense of Being a Gothic Pagan

Lady On the Moon, Arcade Stereo Card c. 1920
This is a repost from my now defunct personal blog, The Dancing Maenad, from July 1. 2011:

Recently, it has come to my attention that many in the Witch and Pagan community erroneously associate the black clad, "oogie, spooky" Witches with the Goth subculture.  These Pagans assume that somehow a Pagan or Witch who dresses all in black or who wears "witchy" clothing and heavy black eyeliner is somehow participating in a "goth game," and therefore subject to criticism. Many use the term "goth" as a way to disassociate themselves with those unsavory people who call themselves Witches, Warlocks or Pagans and who dress in "goth" clothing (read: "witchy" clothing) in order to turn a buck or bring media attention to themselves. Many well-meaning Pagans involved in educating the general public denounce Goth and Gothic fashion as part of the stereotypical "witch" image, all the while trying to show the public that Witches and Pagans come in all shapes and forms -- many whom look and act "just like you and me."

Essays have appeared on Witches' Voice that use the term "goth" as a catch all word that means pessimistic, black or shadow magick, satanism, and those people who engage in questionable ritual practices. I've also witnessed the use of the term to denote people who are characteristically drama queens and who are going through a "phase" and need to grow up. Yet, while trying to separate themselves from the "oogie, spooky" Witches and Pagans, these well-meaning educators are not only being intolerant to a 30 + year old subculture, but they are ostracizing those in the Gothic subculture for participating in the very freedom of expression that these educators hold dear. In other words, while it's ok for Witches and Pagans to be soccer moms, hippies, bikers, and everyday people, it seems to me that it's not ok for Goths to be involved in the Pagan community because we give Pagans and Witches a "bad image." After all, we look "oogie, spooky" almost everyday and not because we are Pagans and Witches, but because we are Goths.

So, what is a Goth anyway? Instead of trying to explain it here, I urge you to please read the information page on Goth.net; or check out Jillian Venter's page; or watch her video here:



These pages all explain what Goth is and what Goth isn't. Not all Witches or Pagans who happen to be decked out in their "witchy finery" are Goths. A sure fire way to know whether a person is a Goth is to check out the music on their iPod or what's listed on their Facebook page because Goth is a subculture affiliated with a music aesthetic that has its roots in Punk Rock. And yet, believe or not Gothic (aka Goth) and modern Paganism share DNA.

In 1757, Englishman Edmond Burke published his treatise A Philosophical Enquiry into the Origin of Our Ideas of the Sublime and the Beautiful. As quoted in Petre ten-Doesschate Chu's Nineteenth Century European Art:
Burke observed that the most powerful human emotions are evoked not by the experience of beauty, but rather by the sensation of pain or fear, or both. These emotions are, in reality, unpleasant, but when experienced from a "safe distance," pain and fear can be thrilling (as when one watches a raging fire), or, as Burke called it, "sublime." Sublime experiences, he wrote, produce a "delightful horror," distinct from the emotion inspired by beauty, which he defined as "love, or some passion similar to it." (74)
Burke's ideas regarding the sublime provided a counter ideal to the contemporary Neoclassical trend in fashion, art and literature. His treatise allowed emotion to trump reason and rationality; horror, fear and pain instead of pleasure and edification. While Europeans flocked to Rome to rediscover Classicism, many Northern Europeans stayed home and looked to their own medieval cultural roots for inspiration. (Chu, 75)  This became increasingly important and albeit, necessary, during the Napoleonic Wars when much of Europe was cut off from the Grand Tour routes to Rome by war. In England, literati like Horace Walpole supported all things medieval, going so far as to build his own British medieval castle called Strawberry Hill. This artistic style called English "Gothick" attracted writers such as Lord Byron, Mary Wollstonecraft, and her daughter Mary Shelley, eventually inspiring the works of Edgar Allen Poe and Bram Stoker ... and Anne Rice. At the same time, many 18th century writers and artists like Byron, Wollstonecraft, and William Blake were involved in the metaphysical philosophies of theologian Emanuel Swedenborg, who popularized theories of correspondences. These are the same theories of correspondences found in today's books on Wicca and Paganism, but more on that in a moment.

In the late 70s, early 80s, the term Gothic or Goth was associated with a specific genre of music and aesthetic growing out of the post-Punk scene. Called Gothic Punks, those in the subculture were attracted to the dramatic, the romantic, the macabre, and most importantly, the sublime. Gothic associations with esoteric spirituality and philosophy and alternative ideals have their roots in the 18th century circles of Burke, Blake and Swedenborg (see the above links for more information). Today, Goths -- those associated with the subculture -- follow a variety of religions and philosophies, or none at all, preferring a more logical, scientific approach to existence. Goths are Goths for a number of reasons. However, a good majority of us are attracted to the sublime qualities the genre offers in dress, music and ideology. The scene is extremely tolerant of alternative lifestyles and ideals, and supports our right to be and think outside the box -- even outside of our own subculture.

Both Goth and modern Paganism share DNA. What we know as modern Paganism and Witchcraft are modern reinterpretations and reworking of both traditional European folk traditions (and what we know of folk religions) and a variety of esoteric high magical practices and spiritual paths that developed as an alternative to the dogma and corruption of the established Christian church. Many of these alternatives, like Swedenborgian philosophy, developed during the same time as Burke's ideals on the sublime. In addition, interest in national heritage, folk traditions and folk religions increased as a result of political nationalism, which was a direct response to the Napoleonic Wars. All of this can be loosely organized under the term Romanticism. (Honour; Zerner and Rosen) As we move into the 19th century with the Romantic movement, we continue to see where Goth and Paganism meet: the inner workings of the mind with Freud and the avatar and divine self with Jung; Lavatar's theories of phrenology; high magic and folk ways; Romantic ideals of medievalism and Renaissance culture; tapping into other states of being and spiritual planes; and the mystical, magical, and other including the dramatic, fearful, and irrational. Here is where we have our shared DNA.

Yet Goth Pagans are maligned in order to validate the "real" Witch, who is often a hippy, biker or soccer mom. Because of a few money grubbing media whores, Goths are associated with those "oogie, spooky" Witches and Pagans who claim they are Witches because they "look like one." Within the Pagan community the intolerance towards those of us who identify as both Goth and Witch or Pagan is extremely high. I understand the necessity of educating the general public that Witches and Pagans aren't Satan worshipping baby-eaters, but neither are Goths. Why prove your validity by mocking or disproving the validity of a subculture that has a long history in art, literature and music? Why build your existence by disassociating yourself from a subculture that shares your DNA?

Goths are Goths because we honor the right to be individuals; to laugh in the face of death; and to revel in the sublime. Like all people who follow something that isn't mainstream, including Paganism and Witchcraft, we are persecuted and harassed. Like Pagans and Witches, we can lose our jobs and our children ... and in some instances, our lives. Might I remind you of the beating and eventual death of Englishwoman, Sophie Lancaster? She and her boyfriend, Robert Maltby, were ruthlessly beaten into comas on August 11, 2007 by a gang of thugs simply for being Goth. While Robert eventually came out of his coma, Sophie died. Goths are treated with suspicion and hatred because of the way we look, even within the so-called tolerant Pagan community.

So before you validate your Pagan-ness or Witch-ness by dismissing Goths as being "oogie, spooky" and not really serious, remember your words can have a deadly consequence -- remember Sophie. Paganism is about freedom and attracts everyone from soccer moms to hippies to bikers, and yes, even Goths. Before you give that cat-eyed, boot-wearing, black-clad Goth the stink eye at your next Pagan event remember, there are those who have been harassed, beaten and killed for being different ... just like Witches and Pagans. We have more than Burkean sublimity in common -- we both have shed blood for our freedom to follow our lifestyles.

Works Cited:

Burke, Edmond.  A Philosophical Enquiry into the Origin of Our Ideas of the Sublime and the Beautiful. Edited by Adam Philips. Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press, 1990. Print.
Chu, Petre ten-Doesschate.  Nineteenth Century European Art. New York: Prentice Hall, 2006. Print.
Honour, Hugh.  Romanticism. New York and London: Westview Press, 1979. Print.
Zerner, Henri and Charles Rosen.  Romanticism and Realism: Mythology of Nineteenth Century Art. New York: W.W. Norton & Co, Inc., 1985. Print.

34 comments:

  1. Speaking as both a Pagan and a goth, even subgenres of Paganism get a bad rap - like Ceremonial Magick and Vodou, which is sometimes viewed with suspicion by more 'mainstream' Pagans (both of which I practise) ;)

    It really doesn't matter which subculture you belong to ... there are always going to be conformists that are there for the wrong reason.

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    1. You're absolutely correct! Side note: your last sentence reminds me of the Dead Kennedy's "Chickenshit Conformist." hehehe ...

      Adding to what you are saying about subcultures of Paganism, I would also add that even the deities that you choose to work with can be a problem amongst the "mainstream Pagans." I don't follow a Celtic/Greek/Roman path. Matter-of-fact, my practice is a nice combination of Northern and Eastern European folk magick/hedgewitchery, shamanism, traditional Wiccan structure with a healthy dose of Hindu and Buddhism. My Ed is into Ceremonial Magick and Buddhism. As you can see from my altar, Kali Ma is my Goddess of choice. I can't tell you how many times I get criticized for this. I've heard everything from, "but she's a Crone. You're too young to work with a Crone!" to "oh, you've always been into the dark Goddesses." What the hell? Kali Ma is NOT a Crone. Kali is a mother, a destroyer and protector. She's powerful and often quite scary. But, She's transformative and that's what I love about Her. She makes sense to me and that's what is important for any spiritual practice.

      It shouldn't be about sanitizing Paganism and packaging it to appeal to the masses. Paganism at it's roots is raw, powerful and organic. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. We tap in differently. While I might be happy hanging out of a tree, you might be happy chanting in Enochian.

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    2. Hmmm, and Paganism isn't supposed to be about dogma!

      I love the mix of Pagan traditions, and the fact that there shouldn't be any rules. Deities contact you for a reason. Since I'm also an artist, some contact me for a 'portrait', hassle me while it's being done, then leave me alone when they're finished ;)

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  2. Thank you, thank you for this post!!! It's always amazed me how some people could show up to pagan events clearly smelling un-bathed with dirty clothes and still give me rude looks and the cold shoulder just because of the way I look. Yes, I may dress differently that your average hippy type Lady RavenMoonsparkle Wiccan but at least I show up to ritual clean and putting an effort into my appearance!

    And then you've got the suburban soccer-mom types who are all about making being Pagan more mainstream. Acceptance, acceptance, acceptance. That's all they talk about...until someone shows up looking like the Wicked Witch or the type of girl they would never let their son date. They want Paganism to be scrubbed up, sanitized and "normal".

    It's that never ending game of "Who's More Pagan?" that keeps me away from the majority of the community.

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    1. "It's that never ending game of "Who's More Pagan?" that keeps me away from the majority of the community."

      *Nods* Exactly

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    2. Yep, it's this "we're just like everyone else" mentality that's makes me crazy. What in world does THAT mean? Normal isn't necessarily good and Paganism is far from normal in the sense that Pagans don't really think like everyone else in accepted society.

      I have to admit, we ran a Pagan community here in NYC for quite some time (The Grove of Oak Community). I got a lot of shit for it because Ed and I didn't want to conform to the "accepted" sense of Paganism. We pushed the boundaries of ritual, we challenged people. And they didn't like that too much. I had rules (be nice to each other, discuss not flame, be tolerant but truthful, don't come to things stoned, etc) and was deemed a Nazi for it. We accepted everyone regardless of what kind of Paganism they were into and got crap for it. We finally closed our doors because no one wanted to help us and because we were tired of the so-called Pagan community. The drama made me crazy, as did the easily bruised egos and the "holier than thou" types.

      These days we stay to ourselves. For the record, I never received official degrees from any tradition. I worked hard as a solitary and then as the organizer and jack-of-all trades for the Grove. It was our close group of Grove folks who bestowed "third degree" on me as recognition of what I was doing. THAT meant more to me than any traditional method because they acted as group. But, I am still told after almost 23 years of being Pagan that I don't know anything because I don't have an official degree. Dude, I have a PhD. That's official enough for me.

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  3. Fantastic post; very well written as usual. Thanks for sharing!

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  4. You bring up a lot of points that I never thought of. I never thought the Pagan community looked down on goth's or the "spooky ooky", I have to say that is quite disappointing. I do not look at Paganism as being dark or spooky, I think of it as a way of life that should be open to all walks of life/lifestyles/etc. I think like many things that get roped into the "Goth/Gothic" label and the Witch/Pagan community is being ignorant to the fact that Goth does not equal bad or evil. It's a little shocking how narrowed minded that mind set is!

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    1. It depends on who and what Pagan you are talking about. Some are totally cool, but the majority I find to be quite judgmental, extremely closed minded, and very conservative in values. In addition, I find it ok to be a soccer mom, biker or hippy but once a Goth walks in then whoa! Here's comes "Goth Vader." Not cool.

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  5. Really interesting post. Paganism aside, I'm very intrigued by your take on sublime as an aesthetic category related to goth, since the sublime (but in the 20th century's perspective)is one of my major research topic. Well written!

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    1. Oooo ... the sublime. Good topic for research! I love the tension between the cultivation of the sublime and Neoclassicism in the late 18th and 19th century, particularly as it plays out in England, Germany and France. I'm interested in the links between national identity, gothic, Romanticism, sublime and the anti-Napoleonic/anti-French sentiment.

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    2. Thank you :)! My primary focus is the connection between the sublime and the constitution of the subjectivity considering the role of art in Adorno's (and, as his primary source, Kant's) tought; the link between sublime/gothic/Romanticism and national identity is a topic that really has to be studied, as it's potentially open to various developments; for instance, here in Italy, where the early Romanticism didn't really grow as a cultural movement, also the Goth counterculture was never a strong underground presence. These connections should really have to be elaborated :) - have you written something about it in relation to the anti-French sentiment? I'd be really curious to read it :)

      Ps: don't know why, but my Google Account's id seems to be just "ML" ^^' - that is MariaLuisa, of course!

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    3. Oooo, your focus sounds SO awesome! Actually the connections between the sublime/gothick/Romanticism has been done by scholars who study the Northern Romantics and British art and literature. German and British national identity really forms as a reaction to Napoleon's conquest of Europe: remember the Grand Tour routes are cut off, therefore artists and writers turn inwards. Also remember that the MacPherson's "Ossian" was circulating as an alternative to Virgil and Homer; and that the Northern artists were looking at the Gothic cathedrals as the North's answer to Rome's grandeur. AND the cult of nature, we can't forget this. This is really the Zeitgeist of the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

      No, I haven't written anything on it as of yet. My focus is on my dissertation which explores illustrated children's literature in America in the late 19th century via St. Nicholas Magazine.

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  6. Seriously??? I've been a Wiccan witch for just over ten years, and I have never noticed this. Then again, I've only met one other pagan that I KNEW was goth, and this was before I let myself out of the closet, so to speak. But now that you mention it, I don't recall ever seeing anyone obviously goth at any festival I've been to in the past. Our entire COVEN is goth (well, one is more steampunk, but who's taking notes?), so perhaps it's a very good thing that we don't mingle much with other pagans/witches. The only pagan gathering that's near us is PantheaCon, and it's waaaayyyy too expensive. (Although at the moment, the vision of us all showing up this year in full goth 'regalia' is VERY tempting.)

    I shall have to get onto WitchVox and see what we've been missing... ::rolls eyes::

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    1. Unfortunately this has been my experience specifically in the Northeast. Perhaps it's regional? Or perhaps you've lucked out and found a really awesome group of like-minded folks to practice with. THAT is key. NYC tends to be more hard-edged and accepting of many different paths, however I found in points North the desperate need for the soccer mom/hippy/biker "we are like everyone else" mentality.

      I need to find the articles on WitchVox for you.

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    2. Type in goth in the search box on the right. An assortment of articles, etc will come up. Draken already addresses this topic in two of his articles, and very well I might add. When you have time read some of the stuff: "pentacles are goth accessories," etc.

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    3. Please and thank you, I would appreciate that very much. I was just on WV and could only find one mildly silly one that wasn't really anti-goth, just goth-ignorant.

      You could be right about it being a regional thing. I'm in California (SF Bay Area), and most people here are reasonably tolerant about quite a bit, although some of the prejudices I've seen/heard have totally surprised me. But I've always heard that NYers, especially in the NYC area, are more or less of like mind, only faster! ;-)

      It's really too bad that so many people feel such a need to have those around them all think/dress/talk/feel/be the same as them. Whatever happened to Strength Through Diversity??? In the end, we're ALL unique, anyway -- just like everyone else.

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  7. Excellent post! I am Goth and a Pagan as well. I don't know any goths or pagans in person, but the pagan community as a whole seems to have alot of issues like this. Goths giving pagans a bad name, or people not being pagan enough or too young. There is a pagan congregation out here (kansas) and I'm hoping that whenever I do get a chance to go to a meeting that they won't treat me badly for being young-ish and goth.

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    1. It's really sad that many Pagans out there feel that they need to validate themselves by putting others down. I don't understand this kind mentality, especially considering that Paganism is still technically a fringe religion. I know that many Pagans have fought for our right to practice; for service men and women to be able to have a pentacle on their tombstone; for the military chaplain's handbook to have a section on Paganism; and to be protected under law. For that I am ever grateful; however, I cannot stand by this trend in Paganism that ostracizes people based on age, subculture, practice of deities.

      I wish you the best of luck! Here's hoping that when you do meet them they will be kind and accepting. *crosses fingers*

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  8. I really love this post.
    And I had to nod at your mention of deities proving to be conflict among peoples, as well as, another poster mentioning other practices.
    I fall into both categories.
    I'm a shaman, with Anubis and Kali.
    And no, I don't come from a standpoint where I choose any of it, it chose me.
    So in that regard, being only twenty - I scare a lot of older pagans.
    In my experience age is also an issue ( as side note), I was going to give a workshop concerning totems and spirit animals and the differences between them.
    At a Pagan Pride festival in Chicago back before I graduated high school, and everything was fine, until they found out my age - then I suddenly needed all of these credentials, and hand outs and what not in order to be considered.
    I've also noticed the same issue on pagan message boards, so I usually don't reveal my age.
    :/

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    1. Anubis and Kali? WAHOO! That's one hell of a dynamic duo -- RAW energy! And yes, I agree. They choose us either in dreams or journey work or because something pulls us inexplicably towards Them. Something clicks.

      And for the record, you don't scare this old fart. ;) Yes, age was and is an issue. I remember getting the same treatment when I first moved to Salem, MA. I was all bright eyed and bushy tailed ... and then it started. First and most obviously, me being a Goth was a problem. I was told I was only drawn to Kali because I'm a "drama queen." How do you know I'm a drama queen? Because I dress Goth therefore it's obvious. Then my age came into play. I was in my late 20s and was practicing for almost 10 years at the point. I wanted to create a study group with other women. To that I was asked, "what will you teach them? What do you know at your age?" huh, how about that.

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    2. I completely understand! :) And initially I was surprised, for a group of people who largely believe in some form of reincarnation - they don't seem to act like it!
      Or is it just out of convenience for them, but once it becomes inconvenient (like dealing with someone half their age who has more knowledge on a subject) it's not credible anymore.
      Where do they think the knowledge comes from? It always makes me feel like i'm beating my head against a wall when dealing with them.

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    3. You are so right on all of your points. Yes, it seems like once these ideas become inconvenient or don't fit into neatly tied packages they deem them not important.

      Age is always an issue in many subcultures and religions. However, it's the "kids" that will progress this forward and we must remember that.

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  9. Thanks for this post. As a goth and a Wiccan I have noticed that some other pagans and Wiccans have this attitude. If you're not a soccer mom or a hippie, they think you're not as serious as they are. I have minimal contact with them though, and try to ignore them.

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    1. YES! That's what it is! Thanks for pointing it out -- they don't think we're serious. I want to know when hippies became the spokespeople for being "serious Pagans." Really? ugh.

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  10. This is a fantastic post, thank you very much for making it. (And thank you for linking to Gothic Charm School!)

    I know I avoid a lot of discussions of Paganism because I am so visibly Goth. I've been on the receiving end of "You're only interested in these things because you think they make you spooky", and it's frustrating and galling.

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    1. Aw, thank you! And thanks for taking the time to comment, this really means a lot to me. Of course I'd link to Gothic Charm School -- your explanation is clear and concise.

      Indeed, it is very frustration that because we dress the way we do our exploration and practice of Paganism becomes branded as an act of rebellion and quest for more intense spookiness. Like many commenters have already noted, somehow being Goth means that we aren't serious in our spiritual pursuits, or that we are undergoing an arrested development and therefore incapable of deep thought. Bah!

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  11. Merry meet! I just found your blog 3 days ago, this is an amazing post. I think it's a shame this kind of behavior in the pagan community, is like the "gother than you" problem. Pagans have a story of being discriminate over the years (and get kill by it), they shouldn't have the same attitude with goths. Where I live I haven't meet any other pagan goth but I do feel some looks from time to time, may be is because they just see the cliche of goths who are attract to the "magic" like a teenager face, and they thing you are not a serious person. I think education is the key for both, pagans and goths; because lest face it, we have more in common than they think.

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    1. Welcome aboard! :) Yes, we definitely have more in common then they want to admit. I also think that they are human beings who live in a stringently defined society and they take that with them into their practice. While they are following an alternative religion Goth (and Punk Rock) is just too much for them to deal with. Religion has the connotation of being "true" and sacred, therefore worth defending. Goth, to many of them, is a phase and a "scary" subculture that one grows out of. HA! To combine the two blows their minds.

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  12. There's a delightful vlogger on youtube who touched on this subject as well! She's a goth and a pagan. She was responding to the extremely negative comments a profilic pagan author made towards pagan goths. Although I'm not pagan I did find it awfully offensive of the author to assume every goth is pagan only to be seen as "ookie spooky". Let me see if I can find it. I think you'll enjoy it. :)

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    1. Yes, can you send me the link when you find it? Thanks so much! Do you remember which author it was? Thanks!

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  13. Kudos on (another) intelligent post - on two topics where stereotypes reign in public opinion and sensible and articulate voices are too often drowned in sensationalist shouting.

    Also, thank you: these two subjects are close to my heart and it warms the blood to see them discussed.

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